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Old June 21st, 2009, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euclid2 View Post
do the predominance of individualism and instrumental reason make it impossible to live an ethical form in modern,western capitalistic society? explain your reasoning.
No it is not impossible. This is coming from a libertarian (therefore I am a free-market capitalist). One thing that I want to say first is that (if you are thinking of the United States, which I am assuming you are) then you need to remember that there is no free-market in the United States. It happens to be "freer" than European nations but it is not free - in fact very far from free. The system that exists (or should I say "existed") in the United States is a corparatist system. There was no free-market system in the United States for almost 100 years now!

Second thing I want to ask is why is greed bad? People often say that greed is bad. Why is it bad? Greed is great. Greed is the reason that everything exists in societies. Just look at your computer, it is just an excellent example of greed. No single human being is capable of designing such a masterpiece. It takes thousands and thousands of people all over the country and all over the world forming little pieces of the computer that end up being assembled together to form the computer. Every single one of these people is not concerned about you, each one is concerned about himself, his self-interest, i.e. greed. Greed is perfectly fine and perfectly human as long as the person deserves it, as long as I earn what I earn in an honest way without cheating or stealing it from other people (because otherwise it is theft).

Now let me ask you this. If you are against capitalism because of greed then why would you ever trust the people on the top of the government? You think the beauracrats that handle your money (if you want to adopt a socialistic way of living) are not greedy? If there is one place for greed then it is definitely for the people on top of the beauracracy. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

If someone really honestly earned billions of dollars why should you punish this person by taking away all this money from him? For every dollar (if it was done honestly without any cheating or stealing) that he earned he produced as much if not more towards society. Carnegie and Rockefeller were very rich people but all their money that they got they got from people who paid for their success, and so they both had very positive effects on society with their self-interest.

I am an individualist, I want people to live their lives freely. To think for themselves and to do the things that they please. Independent of gods and governments. I do not know what you are or how you call yourself, I am going to assume that you call yourself a liberal (sorry if that is wrong). I view liberals as authoratarian collectivists. They are the ones that want to limit how people live their lives and even in some cases how people can talk, they even want to rob people of the means to defend themselves (I am talking about gun-control). I am sure they are well-motivated people but we must judge people's ideas on their consequences and not just on their motivations. It is hypocritical that people point to some extremely selfish people that arise because of capitalism and ignore all the horrors that heavily regulated government brought in history. I would rather live with some selfish people next to me that will not harm me than live under the oppresive power of a big government that pretends that it cares about me. Authoratarian collectivist love to point to "robber barrons" but they gladly ignore all the tyranny and death that powerful governments have caused.
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Why Common Thieves Are Better Than Socialists:

Thieves have the guts to do the job themselves.
Thieves do not steal in the name of "justice".
Thieves do not masquerade as "liberals".
Thieves do not comprise a unified political mob of millions.
Thieves do not loath freedom and individuality.
Thieves do not undermine the Constitution.
Thieves do not promote mind control via "political correctness" and "hate" crimes.
Thieves do not own/control the "establishment" media.
Thieves do not indoctrinate our children to be unquestioning drones of the state.
Thieves can be arrested.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zenjenn
Not to go all Ayn Rand on you or anything, but individualism and self-interest can motivate an outcome that is ethical.
"The biggest minority on the planet is the individual, those who are not willing to protect the individual cannot claim to care about minorities" - Ayn Rand (This is also a motto of some libertarian movements).
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