Observer thread for "On faith as a rational means for knowledge"

[CaptainBlack]

Originally Posted by Prove It

Who is Paul?

A first century publicist for (if not designer of) Christianity

CB

[Prove It]

Originally Posted by CaptainBlack

A first century publicist for (if not designer of) Christianity

CB

I just realised, apart from Jesus, the three most prominent names in Christianity are (St) Peter, Paul and Mary...

[Jameson]

The history of Christianity is a very interesting topic and I truly think that after anyone studies it carefully the religion clearly cannot be taken seriously as true.

The word "faith" has a very negative stigma among academics, scientists and mathematicians. I think it's because they like to believe that they are so certain of things and can prove them, but if you read my posts in the debate I point out flaws in this thinking.

Consider all the things people once "knew" - the world is flat, the earth is the center of the universe, lightning is caused by a god throwing bolts down at us, etc. These seem laughable now but chances are most of us would believe these things if we lived in the right time period. There is more doubt in what we know than most of us want to admit. Make fun of my topic all you want, but CB is the only one who has even attempted to challenge my arguments. I take humor and insults as a compliment because they are diversions to actually addressing issues.

[Matt Westwood]

Originally Posted by Prove It

I just realised, apart from Jesus, the three most prominent names in Christianity are (St) Peter, Paul and Mary...

And John, don't forget. Now that bloke could *write*.

[CaptainBlack]

Does not breaking the agreed rules for a "Debate" automatically lead to a disqualification or loss by the offending debater?

RonL

[mr fantastic]

Originally Posted by CaptainBlack

Does not breaking the agreed rules for a "Debate" automatically lead to a disqualification or loss by the offending debater?

RonL

In the world of debating there is generally a points penalty for going over time .... I'm inclined to decree that for this debate, an appropriate penalty might be for Jameson to get one final post. I'm still thinking about it and will decide after VonNemo makes his final post (he should post with my inclinations in mind ....)

I'm inclined to observe that well-intentioned gamesmanship does not always represent the true feelings of a poster. (And one must always be careful that the gamesmanship does not unintentionally spoil things - because it's very easy to accidently go too far. I know).

[mr fantastic]

Originally Posted by mr fantastic

In the world of debating there is generally a points penalty for going over time .... I'm inclined to decree that for this debate, an appropriate penalty might be for Jameson to get one final post. I'm still thinking about it and will decide after VonNemo makes his final post (he should post with my inclinations in mind ....)

I'm inclined to observe that well-intentioned gamesmanship does not always represent the true feelings of a poster. (And one must always be careful that the gamesmanship does not unintentionally spoil things - because it's very easy to accidently go too far. I know).

Actually Jameson is fortunate he was not debating me. Because from the getgo I'd define faith as leaving your money in an unlocked car .

(Which is probably strong proof of the warning never to argue with a fool [because s/he will drag you down to his/her level and then beat you with experience]).

[CaptainBlack]

Originally Posted by mr fantastic

Actually Jameson is fortunate he was not debating me. Because from the getgo I'd define faith as leaving your money in an unlocked car .

Thus reducing your carbon foot print by recycling

CB

[CaptainBlack]

Originally Posted by Prove It

I just realised, apart from Jesus, the three most prominent names in Christianity are (St) Peter, Paul and Mary...

They were a pretty good folk group, but the three most prominent figures in Christianity?

(Mary Travers died on the 16-th of this month, that's nine days ago, aged 72)

RonL

[Jameson]

Originally Posted by mr fantastic

I'm inclined to observe that well-intentioned gamesmanship does not always represent the true feelings of a poster. (And one must always be careful that the gamesmanship does not unintentionally spoil things - because it's very easy to accidently go too far. I know).

I agree with this and understand people get into character. I had hoped though that the Formal Debate forum would emphasize the world "formal" and keep to the issues at hand. It is an extremely popular technique (and effective one) to attack the man behind the arguments which in turn makes his arguments seem attacked. If you discredit someone's accountability or rationality, then it makes it harder to take their claims seriously regardless of if they are true or not.

[VonNemo19]

Originally Posted by mr fantastic

. (And one must always be careful that the gamesmanship does not unintentionally spoil things - because it's very easy to accidently go too far. I know).

I am a good person. I am a reasonable person. I am able to play at chess, and not lose my head when I lose my queen.

This sub-forum, in my opinion, a great addition to MHF, and it would be a grave misfortune indeed if anyone has "faith" that I am like this 100% of the time!

As you say, it is a game. Therefore, it is meant to be played. It is a very fun game, too.

[mr fantastic]

Voting is now open. I have complete faith that the correct decision will be reached. As the Moderator, I've decided to abstain from the vote.

(I was very tempted to put 'CB was the winner' as one of the voting options )

[Jameson]

Originally Posted by VonNemo19

I am a good person. I am a reasonable person. I am able to play at chess, and not lose my head when I lose my queen.

This sub-forum, in my opinion, a great addition to MHF, and it would be a grave misfortune indeed if anyone has "faith" that I am like this 100% of the time!

As you say, it is a game. Therefore, it is meant to be played. It is a very fun game, too.

I knew you were just trying to win so like I said, no hard feelings at all. I didn't really approach this debate as trying to win it being my first priority and I think you did. Although I don't think you demonstrated how we come to knowledge without faith, I think you did a great job at being persuasive to the group that was reading the debate (MHF).

I, like you guys, love to prove things and understand everything. I don't like uncertainty and I hope that faith becomes less and less a part of this world by the day. I too VonNemo19 hate the applications that many have used with faith based arguments. Like I said though, these people use it irrationally and won't be persuaded by any reason. People who can never change their minds are dangerous.

Good debate.

[VonNemo19]

Originally Posted by Jameson

I knew you were just trying to win so like I said, no hard feelings at all. I didn't really approach this debate as trying to win it being my first priority and I think you did. Although I don't think you demonstrated how we come to knowledge without faith, I think you did a great job at being persuasive to the group that was reading the debate (MHF).

I, like you guys, love to prove things and understand everything. I don't like uncertainty and I hope that faith becomes less and less a part of this world by the day. I too VonNemo19 hate the applications that many have used with faith based arguments. Like I said though, these people use it irrationally and won't be persuaded by any reason. People who can never change their minds are dangerous.

Good debate.

Jameson, you don't even have to say any of this stuff. You know me pretty well by now; well enough to know that I respect you very much. We both know that this was a debate, and as such, it was to be treated as one. I think that you are an absolutely great guy, and if anyone ever asks, you're the best. If the Sub-forum were called

Informal Conversations

then we would have enjoyed a very different experience altogether and there would have been nothing more than two guys agreeing with each other.

Anyway, good luck!

Post Script:

Attention MHF members! Be advised that some of the statements that were made throughout the course of this exchange between Jameson and myself were said as a means by which to win a debate, and do not neccessarily reflect how we truly feel about

A) Each other.
B) The topic itself.
C) MHF

Have fun voting everyone.

Post Script 2:

Jameson, I want you to know that I put up your flyer at my work. You may think that this is cool, but you'll think its really cool after you ask me where I work...

Well, go on... Ask me.

[Jameson]

I think I have the wrong disposition to go for the kill in debates. I am used to a very relaxed setting of philosophical debate, which stem from my years in high school guitar class. We would do nothing but sit around talking about life for an hour every day while playing whatever ridiculously easy chord progression we had to do. I am used to a very relaxed debate setting where one is given the benefit of the doubt and just asked to explain more.

I really don't care about winning debates, only trying to see perspectives with which I am unfamiliar.